What are your thoughts on shinto /b/?Marked for deletion (Old)
sounds kewl but i hasn't read any of teh texts
There was a time where I thought about becoming shinto follower since it boils down to worshiping ones ancestors and nature but it is ultimately a japancentric religion and it doesn't make sense to practice it if you're not japanese. However, I like taoism and budddhism to some extent and those are more welcoming to foreingers if you ignore the folklore and cultural roots of both religions. But one can't do that with shinto.
Glory to her Lordship HAKONIWA KAMISAMA
I think there is a charm to Asian pantheistic & animistic folk religions I wish such religions were still popular in the west instead of "join us or u will burn in hell for the eternity lol"-ish abrahamic religions
>>112519>it is ultimately a japancentric religion and it doesn't make sense to practice it if you're not japaneseI think that this is both correct and mistaken in a way. I think that Shintou is simply the most original, universal kind of spirituality there is. It just took a different form in different parts of the earth. Shintou is the same spirituality that the Native Americans had, that the ancient pre-Christian Indo-European peoples had, that the Greeks and Romans had, and so on, whether you call it "Shintou," "paganism," "nature worship," "animism," or whatever else. I think that in that sense we can't authentically practice it in a Japanese mode outside of the Japanese landscape, but can practice forms of what is called "Shintou" wherever we are in the world as long as we are open to the voice of the earth.
you will burn in hell for the eternity lol
Shintoism is fake and gay. It was made up during the Meji restoration. All those cute Shinto shrines you love were run by Buddhist priests. Shintoism has always been a nationalist pet project. Its better than other nationalist bullshit religions like Tengrism lol because at least its built on actual folk beliefs. Its also why you can't be a Shintoist you smelly jappafag wap. Although I did run into this white guy in the Netherlands who goes around dressed as a Shinto priest. The local Mistubishi branch sometimes hires him to bless cars or something but most Japanese think he's a moron. Pure Land Buddhism was by far the most popular religion among Japanese until America nuked them. Now they food amd Yoshinoya is the closest thing they have to church.But! There are syncretic forms of Shinto mixed with Buddhism, Taoism and oddly enough Islam for some reason. That last one never caught on （⌒∇⌒ゞ） But you can just join Buddhislam and than practice Shinto beliefs on the side. Maybe enshrine your KinkPad and worship Phatchouli too. Christian trinity is like one step away from full blown Shintoism. You know the Catholic church in the 1920s said it was ok to be a Christian and practice Shinto because Shintoism is just cultural tradition. Go ahead. Do it! Follow the path of Ahmed Ariga who syncretized Islam and Shinto by saying Allah is the same as AmenonakANUShi. Now just add the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to AmenonakANUShi(names in Nipponese of course *wink*) and all all the Shinto gods as angels or something. Good? Now make up some rules and found your own church. Make fapping a good deed and you'll win converts in now time. Done! Now you can be a Westerner and do the Shinto too. White Shinto. All praise the kami of Hallmark cards and ugg boots!>112522>I wish such religions were still popular in the west instead of "join us or u will burn in hell for the eternity lol"-ish abrahamic religionsSAY NAMU AMIDA BUTSU NOW OR YOU WILL GO TO NIRAYA OR BE REBORN AS A HUNGRY GHOST (zombie) ヽ(`Д´)ノ I mean look at it this way... is it really that different from Catholics and their gazillion billion folk saints? Or Muslims with their gazillion billion Sufi sheikhs and Jinns? Santa Muerte is way cooler. I mean just look at her!>I think that Shintou is simply the most original, universal kind of spirituality there is.I've never heard actual Shinto people say this. They see kami as a Japanese thing. Like maybe other cultures have something like kami but kami are Japanese and Japanese only. Look at it this way, Japanese kami are like gods who only live in Japan. Its not a universal spirituality at all but a local nativist one.
>>112528you tell 'em weeaboos, vim
>>112528Note to any actual Shinto belivers: I did not intend to profane the name of 天之御中主. Its just the dumb filter お詫びします
>>112528>I've never heard actual Shinto people say this. They see kami as a Japanese thing. Like maybe other cultures have something like kami but kami are Japanese and Japanese only. Look at it this way, Japanese kami are like gods who only live in Japan. Its not a universal spirituality at all but a local nativist one.What you say is not in contrast to what I say. The most universal spirituality is the one that turns to the native land we live in and evolves along with it. All the other forms of spirituality I mention don't worship the same kami or practice the same rites because Shintou is inherently connected to the land and nature of Japan. They are in different landscapes, so they cannot worship the same kami. But the act of turning to the land and worshiping the spirits, gods, kami, energies, etc. in it wherever you are is a universal thing that all peoples around the world seem to have done as their most original, ancient form of worship. It has been named Shintou in Japan because it was simply snuffed out instead of being allowed to coexist with organized religions in most other countries in the world. Otherwise we might have names for whatever people practiced as native rites in Europe, in the Americas, or wherever else.Such is my opinion. Maybe some Shintoists in Japan would disagree, but the thread is about our opinions, no?
lol amenonakANUShi
Shi(n)t(o) is a religion and religion is gae
>>112533I kinda get where you're coming from. If you look at a lot of spiritual and religious beliefs in Asia, Africa, or Latin America, there's this idea that the world is an enchanted place full of supernatural beings or spirits we can befriend and talk to. This culture died off in the West (and in Japan too) because modernity slowly killed it off and replaced it with a materialist mechanical view of the universe where trees and rivers are just dumb playthings for humans to exploit. But these spiritual and folk beliefs don't really share the same fundamental beliefs at all. Ottoman Islam, Russian folk Christianity, and Japanese kami worship all shared a vision of an enchanted universe where nature is filled with spirits and monsters, but their basic beliefs are completely different. Is it true that ancient pre-Abrahamic religions were these cutesy pro-nature Shinto like comfyness? Well, ancient Near Eastern religions saw the gods as transcendent and unreleatable. Humans are inferior slaves of the gods and the natural world is often portrayed as a filthy shithole created by an evil god or by accident (e.g. after Ninhursag is killed by Enlil, the gods create humanity from her corpse to be their slaves and serve them food and drink). The Caananites and Carthaginians would burn infants as payment to appease Ba'al. What made religions like Judaism and Christianity successful is that they preached that everyone could have a personal reltionship with God and that he loves us and will forgive us and doesn't eat your children. You couldn't have a relationship with Zesus or Ba'al because you are literally a worthless slave and they don't love you or owe you anything. Ancient Slavic and Germanic religions were roughly simmilar. That's why these religions died out while Shinto and Hinduism are still around. Hindu and Shinto beliefs are a lot less cruel and harsh than the cult of Jupiter. Saint and spirit verneration was very popular in Abrahamic religions too and still is and some of the nicer deities get absorbed into Jewish or Muslim philosophy or folk Catholicism. People have this idea that Abrahamic religions are all about hell and punishment while Buddhism and Shintoism are peaceful and comfy. But you have concepts simmilar to hell (jigoku) in Shinto and Buddhism and these people fought violent wars and killed each other over beliefs too. Shintoists had a whole campaign to wipe out Buddhism at one point.
jew = cut tip of PENIS offmuslim = cut tip of VAGINA off which makes PENIS sadchristian = don't use PENIS until marriage and also probably cut the tip offWhat rules does buddhism and shintoism have about the PENIS?
>>112547Dude STFU you're so fucking gay you should end yourself.
112548-san hates PENIS and VAGINA
>>112547in Shinto, the PENIS is venerated as a sacred object to be worshiped by all
>>112547There's conflicting information on the Buddha's own PENIS in the suttas. Sometimes it's big and made of magical power, sometimes it's so small that it is "hidden in the folds of his skin".
>>112517I think mara's right that it's a NEET religion (as in the kami is a NEET).
>>112547I think we can probably find common ground here. In a sense, I feel like the focus on "beliefs" itself as the focus of religion is kind of a thing that developed with organized religions like Christianity and Buddhism and not necessarily how the most ancient spirituality was practiced. If you look at the way Shintou is practiced now, you can work as a miko even if you don't profess to "believe" in the faith... you just have to do the correct rites, etc. From what I understand, it was very similar in Ancient Greece and Rome. Lots of people would do divining rituals etc. even if they didn't really "believe" in them. The religions were mostly about external rites, holy sites, etc. and the "metaphysics" of the religion wasn't very clearly defined. There was no "holy book" in Ancient Greece, nor is there in Shintou or most of the other similar "pagan" religions, just a lot of folklore stories. The Kojiki could be a contender I suppose, as Shintou priests pretty much always study it, but certainly it doesn't function much like a bible or even like Buddhist sutras.I think of it like this: what does it "mean" to us when we put flowers on a gravestone? We don't necessarily "believe" that the ghost of the person there will really see the flowers, but it seems wrong to assess the meaning and importance of that action via our "beliefs" in the first place. I think the distinction isn't so much that in ancient times the pagans all "believed" sincerely and we now only view it as some kind of LARPing. It's more that there wasn't as much of a distinction between "worshiping" things and "honoring" them and between beliefs and actions (offering things, prostrating the body in the correct way, making a pilgrimage, etc.). So while we can maybe make distinctions between some "pagans" who saw everything as having an individual nameable spirit (like Japanese) versus there being some kind of "spiritual dark matter" in everything (like Polynesian mana) or some kind of more monotheistic-sounding idea (everything being part of a "Great Mother" etc.), in a sense the religion "functions" more as a matter of external ritual than internal, metaphysical beliefs.Also I do think that sometimes we falsify the idea of animism, nature worship, etc. by making them all seem like hippies who saw the world as some fairytale wonderland. Nature can be scary and sublime and it makes sense to view it as something overwhelming and even violent. I don't think I ever tried to argue that nature worship entailed only seeing things as peaceful and blissful? But I do think we idolize war less in the modern day than in the ancient world. Shintou has probably become to be peaceful and comfy because modern Japanese people are pacifistic. It was a religion of holy war in World War II and before that endorsed violent suppression of Buddhism in the Edo Period, like you say. But this is to be expected. All religions evolve to some degree, even these most ancient and primordial ones.You're very knowledgeable and it's interesting to reflect on your thoughts. I find world religions, folklore, and their history to be a very interesting subject.
>>112563I replied to the wrong post. Meant for >>112543, obviously.
>>112563You're right, we tend to see religions as about beliefs and faith when practice and ritual is more important for most people. Faith is really a Westerrn Christian idea. If you look at India's most popular Muslim shrines, they are extremely popular with Hindus and many Hindus work as attendees. There are Christian shrines in Turkey that get more visits from Muslims and the shrine of Rumi was popular with Greek Orthodox Christians. People are more interested in the spritual powers of these places than theology or metaphysics. Ordinary people are usually pragmatic and they will go where they can find something to help them in their lives. Often they have their own interpretation of why these things work or they don't care as long as the results are good. There's nothing wrong with that attitude. Its actually very sensible.This relationship to the world where people communicate with spirits or animals, think objects or natural places have special powers, relationships of sacrifice and gift giving, casting out evil spirits etc. is innate to humans and common to most major religions. I wouldn't say Shinto is a surviving version of that or that organized religions killed it, they actually strengthened it. What's slowly snuffing it out is the secular materialist worldview and gradual disenchantment or replacement with consumerist values and pop culture. Japan is no different. Temples have been declining for decades and many are just tourist traps now.Shinto aesthetics are super comfy though and the barrier for entry is pretty low. Its not exclusive like belonging to a church or synagogue but still nationalistic and Japancentric.Pic: abandoned Shinto shrine in Nakano
>>112528>Its better than other nationalist bullshit religions like Tengrism lol because at least its built on actual folk beliefsNot sure what you mean by "actual folk beliefs", but I could count you a dozen of pre-islamic superstitions alive here. The pantheist view of the god aside, it had shamanistic elements in it (as westerners first used the word "Shamanism" to refer to turks/mongols' religion), which probably made up the folk side of it. Personally I liek it, but sadly it's true only a certain group of nationalists care about it anymore
>>112589say ulan nazar ve kurşun döktürtmek harici ne sayacaksın bakim
>>112590I'm not sure if either nazar of molybdomancy is strictly tengriist, but similar things existed anyways so counting them.I did a little research, can't guarantee all these are pre-islamic in case the sources are mistaken, but they're superstitions&culture we have regardless:1- Red ribbons attached to wedding dress/kids to bring happiness/luck2- Fancy musalla taşı in tombs3- Animals in rug motifs4- Mevlüt, an "islamic" funeral only turks do, using instruments banned in islam (esp. drums)5- Praying towards sky, pointing the sky to refer to Allah (against what quran says)6- Leaving house with right foot first. My mother cares a lot about this one 7- To send off people with pouring water8- Tying cloth to trees for wishing stuff from its spirit9- Knocking to wood to scare off bad spirits (that "tch tch" thing)10- Gathering at 7, 21, and especially 40th (kırkı çıkmak for babies) days of someone's birth/death11- That thumb-to-mouth gesture people do when they are startled, it's something about keeping our souls12- Small water troughs in our graves for birds
>>112589Kami verneration was already part of Japanese culture for centuries. There were local shrines and cults everywhere with most attached to Buddhist temples. Tengrism is completely artifical with no connection to everyday religion in Turkey or to ancient pre-Islamic Turkish beliefs. Its what historians call an invented tradition. There is no connection between modern Tengrism and what a Turkish nomad might have believed 2,000 years ago. The word Tengri or Tankari doesn't even refer to a seperate deity, its just a generic name for God used in Chaghtay Turkish as a synonym for Allah or the Chinese idea of Tian or Heaven.>112594Your assuming that there's an easy distinction between Islamic and pre-Islamic ideas, when in fact religious and spiritual ideas move around a lot and mix together and evolve all the time. You can't untangle them so easily. Shinto and Buddhism are still not totally seperate even today. An outsider might look at Afghan villagers appeasing mountain spirits and see it as preserving some pre-Islamic belief, but those villagers don't see it that way. Half of those "pre-Islamic" things you've listed are just mundane cultural variations not even distinct rituals linked to beliefs. Search for an authentic pre-Buddhist or pre-whatever tradition and you won't find it because everything is already mixed up anyway.
I don't care a lot about this...>Kami verneration was already part of Japanese culture for centuriesTengrism is also teh rly ancient (3300BC is certain, there are signs of 4000BC and older), and I think forms of "nature=god" was simply an accepted fact among Asians as they were evolving enough to form languages.>There were local shrines and cults everywhere with most attached to Buddhist templesTurks were nomads, where the most complex buildings were yurt tents. By the time Oghuz Turks reached Anatolia they were already converted to Islam, maybe other Turks or Mongols have more traces of pre-Islamic culture>Tengrism is completely artifical>Its what historians call an invented tradition. There is no connection between modern Tengrism and what a Turkish nomad might have believed 2,000 years agoAbrahamic religions are pretty unforgiving for other religions, but I listed above how it's not completely unrelated. Another thing to add, mosques here have crescent things on top, unlike other countriesAlso what do you mean by "modern Tengrism"? Do you realize there are Turks who never converted to Islam?This is I think a Kyrgyz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5c_G24ImSwIf you care about it, this seems to be a Turkish guy visiting Yakut to document Tengriists https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENdrMDWQsvs>The word Tengri or Tankari doesn't even refer to a seperate deity, its just a generic name for God used in Chaghtay Turkish as a synonym for AllahTengri (now "Tanrı" in modern Turkish) means god. Köktengri (now Gök Tanrı) means Sky God, the name of the "deity" (though it's rly just the sky, per pantheism).>An outsider might look at Afghan villagers appeasing mountain spirits and see it as preserving some pre-Islamic belief, but those villagers don't see it that wayThis is true, you just can't expect any common villager to know why they are doing what they are doing. It was this way before Islam/Buddhism etc took over too. People simply do stuff because their parents did >Half of those "pre-Islamic" things you've listed are just mundane cultural variations not even distinct rituals linked to beliefsYou can't know that. And even if it's that way, mundane cultural stuff made up details of old religions. It's only a recent thing that culture and religion are apart. As for Tengrism, there were some other gods I don't know how much of the population knew about, but old Japanese people probably didn't care to believe Shinto deities as closely either (maybe unless being settled helped to make up more gods?)
If you want to go down the Shinto route there kamidana apps so you don't have to fork out your NEET bux on one or offend the kami with a shitty bootleg or, kami-sama forbid, your own home made one.https://kamidana.app/index-en>Kojikihttps://eastasian.as.virginia.edu/translation-kojiki-published-professor-heldt>Nihon Shokihttps://jhti.studentorg.berkeley.edu/Nihon%20shoki.htmlIf you are a smelly NEET who spends all day watching anime. Forget Shinto. You should embrace JODO SHINSHU BUDDHISM. Why? Because all you have to do is call out to Amida Buddha and you will be reborn in the Pure Land where there is no pain, no work, and Amida Buddha will train you so you too can attain Enlightenment and Buddhahood. This is the perfect religion for a NEET. You don't even need to do anything and its great for a chunnibyo. Just believe in Amida Buddha and you will reborn when you die. Its that simple. Its the most popular religion in Japan. And anyone can be a Shin Buddhist. You don't need a kamidana or travel all the way to NIPPON to do jinja.>>112602GODDDAMMIT THIS IS A SHINTO THREAD SHINTO I DONT WANNA DEALS WITH TURKS AND THEIR DUMB HANG UPS WITH ISLAM STOP RUINING MY COMFY SHINTO MOOD Tengrism is a fake new religion invented in the Soviet Union. No relation to ancient Tengri worship which doesn't exist anymore. Don't care what some random YOUTUBER have to say about it. See this historical research article:https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02634930701517433
>but there was no shared religious tradition that held these groups together. No common books. No shared pantheon or metaphysics or theology. One Turkic steppe nomad would have wildly different beliefs to another oneIs there any folk religion that's not like this?You're partly right about nationalists making up stuff about it, but claiming it's all made up is also absurd. It was state religion of many, including Mongols (that letter to the pope exists too)I don't care enough to read the article, but "Kyrgyzstan and Tatarstan and to a lesser extent, in Kazakhstan, Bashkortostan and Buryatia" doesn't include Yakuts who has the most Tengrist population anyways.Similar nearby folk religions are relevant to Shinto! But again, I don't care enough to keep discussing, nor I have a "hang up" with islam if I ever said anything about it
>>112615>If you want to go down the Shinto routeIf you want to go down the Shinto route just play Touhou
>>112615>https://kamidana.app/index-enThis looks more like some new age shit for tumblrites more than an actual substitute for a kamidana
>>112519>There was a time where I thought about becoming shinto followerSame.
>>112543greek despised naturepan the god of nature is an evil and despicable creature .nature was a force of chaos and evil in contrast to civilitation and reason, rappresented by Athens Apollon and Zeus