Is it real? Yes, as far as the laws of physics are concerned. Does it matter? Not in any way that has meaning to us.

>>182253
>Does it matter? Not in any way that has meaning to us.

Why are we continuing to live in spite of that? If determinism means we are just pre-programmed meat robots then not even absurdism holds up anymore.

>>182254
i dont believe in determinism because i don't believe some higher being was retarded enough to make me jerk off 8 times a day, that one was me ヽ(´ー｀)ノ

It's actually this way
Determinism -> pre determination -> calvinism
So if someone is a massive fag, just kill them their pre determined for hell anyway

>>182255
That's predeterminism. Not determinism.

>>182254
>Why are we continuing to live in spite of that
personally for me its because of picrel

>>182258
Millions of years of evolutionary pressure makes you want this specific thing a whole lot, so it's better than nothing. ┐(ﾟ～ﾟ)┌

>>182258
>>182259
This still fucks me up, I can't deal with nihilism

idk what any of this means but i don't think there is free will (physics etc), HOWEVER we should still live as if we actually had free will. i mean, can i, a living being limited by the laws of the universe, know with near certainty whether i have free will or not? no, that would require me having access to some higher power, or something outside of the universe in which i'm "trapped" in. because of that, i would also not be able to tell the difference between having or not having free will, because that concerns something that is beyond my realm of existence (the universe). it also has always only been one of the two (either ive always had it, or never had it), so i would have no way to make a comparison.

if i can't know, and can't tell the difference, then it doesn't matter to me which one it is. so i'm just gonna pick whichever is more helpful, or at the very least, makes me feel better about myself and others. having free will sounds nice and helps me keep myself and others around me in check, so i'm gonna go with that
>>182255
also this LOL

>>182246
free will, like all things, exists within a context. Hard determinism fails to account for mans ability to act within those constraints on history. These things exist on a continuum, reality influences ideas and ideas influence reality through action. The base creates the superstructure and the superstructure reinforces the base.

>>182262
building from what this anon says, truth is the amalgamation of object and subject, the movement of the parts that make the whole, the oscillation of characteristics. things dont exist in isolation, they cant exist without an other, they cant exist outside of the constraints of space and time.

>>182257
oh. so the arrangement of particles and movements of it that makes me want to jerk off 8 times a day... （ ´,_ゝ`） If laplace's demon was real, i'm willing to bet that thing would hate me!

>>182262
>HOWEVER we should still live as if we actually had free will

So you deal with it by kidding yourself? A fully inauthentic life? Yeah I still can't deal with this.

>having free will sounds nice and helps me keep myself and others around me in check, so i'm gonna go with that

What's the point?

>>>182255
>also this LOL

Anon was talking about predeterminism, an entirely different school of thought, one that will probably not be very popular since it 1. Means that theism is a universal truth and God is real 2. But also the gnostic notion that God is an asshole

>>182263
>"Hard determinism fails to account for mans ability to act within those constraints on history."

Could you elaborate, please? This sounds very interesting

>So you deal with it by kidding yourself? A fully inauthentic life? Yeah I still can't deal with this.
>What's the point?
Points and authenticity are equally pointless and inauthentic

>>182267
>Points and authenticity are equally pointless and inauthentic

This harbors back onto nihilism. I am having a severe difficulty finding a reason not to off myself from this existential crisis.

>>182266
if you don't have free will, then it doesn't matter if it's authentic or not, or even if you're okay with it being inauthentic
your emotional state would simply be the direct, immutable result or the initial conditions of the universe
there would be nothing to accept since either my reply, which was predetermined since the birth of the cosmos, will either lead to your acceptance or not

and thus your resulting belief would also be an immutable effect determined long, long ago

if you do have free will, then acting as if you don't is... kind of a waste? it would also be your problem, and something for others to take advantage of (´人｀)

and lesser in-between states don't really make much sense, since you would still have entities with agency to actually change things even within any framework of something trying to balance the scales

>>182271
>then it doesn't matter if it's authentic or not

That's what I'm saying, which is why I'm having a problem with this.

>>182273
well, I guess the point is that you wouldn't be able to feel any other way if you didn't have free will

although I guess I also wouldn't be able to not make this post (;´Д`)

>>182268
with free will, it would be your choice/mistake to make
without it; your stay in reality has a fixed length known since the beginning of time (;´Д`)

as such, you either accept free will and can choose to live, or you are simply dragged along by the current, whether that current be real (no free will) or imagined (yes free will, but you think otherwise)

┐(ﾟ～ﾟ)┌

>>182274
But... Which is truth?

answers exist just not in our realm of understanding, they are omnipresent and always true and it makes sense like maths, the fact one doesnt understand calculus doesnt make it false or unreal, finding answers about existence is like learning maths

immutable always true but hard to uncover all its parts and just like maths doesnt judge students the truth about reality doesnt judge seekers about their ability or inability, ultimately living in illusion or reality or anywhere in between is fundamentally the same

all we ever explore is within a very thin scope of human ability, you cant hear sounds outside of 20-20000hz, you cant see outside of 400-700nm, you wont see colors except the 3 put in very arbitrary manner along that thin spectrum, you wont sense electrical impulses and magnetic fields like pigeons, you wont calculate hundreds x hundreds in mind, you wont truly split focus on more than one task at a time, you wont bend your knuckles backwards or 360 with your head, you wont sense temperature above and beyond a thin spectrum

you are not able to imagine what it is to be something else than you, even the words we use are our own vesions of language ultimately so we never truly speak our mind and never truly understand what someone is saying, we dont speak to friends we speak to our image of them

we are stuck in an illusion we can learn anything while in fact all we take as truth is our biased belief something is true because we want it to be true and there is no true grasping too, the universe doesnt respond to correct us because whether we are smart or dumb it is the same thing and our smart-dumb spectrum is an arbitrary made up concept like all of them, belief in separate concepts or objects in the universe being separate is an illusion

human built-in hardcoded through evolution consciousness has a very thin operational field only made to perpetuate existence of species and not to explore reality, it is hardcoded to be stuck in an illusion your body is special among billions of our ancestors yet you treat this one particular body better than anyone elses body as if you were special to yourself, stuck in belief your creation was more special than the rest of creation but like all of dead and living matter you were built from the same atoms making states of being alive and dead arbitrary and unreal and a wrong way to think

you are your thoughts and there is no you or world outside of them to you, you dont question whether eyes or ears lie to you and you just assume it is real, you come to conclusions and you blindly assume them to be real, you are your thoughts and you are your mental state and you are bound by your mental and sensory field of abilities, there is no world without it or outside of it, you cannot understand other mental states without being inside them, its impossible to understand nirvana without achieving it first, and once nirvana fades away you again do not know what it is like as your state of mind changed

the absolute truth is
<><><><><><><><><><>
####################
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
dbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdb
qpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqp
o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o

i could have said nothing or blatant lies or full truth and the world would fundamentally be the same either way

>>182276
>you are your thoughts

Determinism says I don't even own my thoughts.
It's also built from the same atoms.
What the fuck?

>>182278
all wrong concepts
i made mine of exclusively invalid concepts like everyone else
our posts prove all i attempted to state, at least i consider it sufficient proof inside of my judgement and mind meaning its just as real as reality to me, i will assume and be ignorant and there is no ultimate consequences for anything as reality doesnt judge, it just is, and truly free mind just is too at least from subjective perspective, what is real and unreal is ultimately a question of different beliefs or none at all

who is the determinism and where do i fuck him up huh? if you dont own your thoughts than who did you transfer their ownership to? or maybe yoursness of thoughts just escaped because you forgot to leash them?

the truth is omnipresent and super simple but humans arent meant to see it, there is no other way of finding it out than by sensing it with an appropriate mind, no theory will explain it like no theory will explain why addition substraction exists because it is so elemental and innate to the reality

>>182266
>Could you elaborate, please? This sounds very interesting

"history" is the movement of human societies through time, propelled by the schisms (contradictions) that occur within societies. These schisms can be small or large but they add up to create breaking points at which things change radically (sublimation). There is a movement where a thing, that is made of conflicting elements, has to come to terms with those conflicting elements, at which point a new thing is born. In anime terms, Ikari Genji exists, he loves people, they make him feel good, but also he hates people, they've hurt him so much(the hedgehogs dilema, the contradiction), therefore Genji Ikari must become LCL (sublimation).

Well to answer that first we must describe society. Societies are social collections of individuals, they sustain themselves through production, of food, housing, clothes, etc. Societies therefore organize themselves around production. This organization is done through social relations, which are are intangible, ideology, ideology exists only as relations between people; but, people have actions and these relations between people can be made physical through the mediation of human action. Your relation to production, very generally speaking owning or owned, determines your social class, which determines how you sustain yourself, through labor or through expropriation of another's labor.

So production (materiality) determines social relations ("immateriality"), which then are reflected back onto reality (materiality) through humans. Its a cycle. This is what i mean by "acting on history", humans within a system have freedom of action, yes, but that freedom isn't infinite, it is closed.

I can't quit my job because i need to eat and have housing and clothes because society is organized in such a way that i work for wage to buy commodities and that is how i sustain myself, even if i TECHNICALLY have the ability to quit. A medieval peasant in the Frankish empire couldn't browse Heyuri because computers didn't exist, even though he has the ABILITY to in a given context. In this way actions are determined, but within those determinations you have choice.

This is the ultimate truth of choice, unchosen choice.

>>182276
Rabbitfield can babble all he wants about how there is no truth and we can know nothing of the absolute, but he can only do this through the mediation of his fingers on his keyboard and through his and our screens, through the labor that went into creating all those things, and Heyuri, the electricity and acid and mushrooms and food he eats. That is truth. Truth is the movement of things through space and through time, the reckoning of objective and subjective. A Thing in itself is not truth. A Thing for another is not truth. A Thing, as a whole, in itself and for another, is where truth lies.

>>182280
Are you arguing for compatibilism?

>Rabbitfield can babble all he wants about how there is no truth and we can know nothing of the absolute, but he can only do this through the mediation of his fingers on his keyboard and through his and our screens, through the labor that went into creating all those things, and Heyuri, the electricity and acid and mushrooms and food he eats. That is truth. Truth is the movement of things through space and through time, the reckoning of objective and subjective. A Thing in itself is not truth. A Thing for another is not truth. A Thing, as a whole, in itself and for another, is where truth lies.

This is materialism.

>>182281
I am a materialist yes. I am attempting to approach this question, and the question of truth, from a materialist perspective. I don't know enough about the meta debate around free will to reliably label myself a compatibilist, but I am arguing that choice exists within the lack of choice. That constraints and influences are set and that people act "freely" with those influences and within those constraints.